The book of Job
The book of Job was one of the most difficult books for me to read and understand. It was terribly hard to sit there and try to understand why Job went through what he did.
I recommend reading Job, even to non believers, it's just so old and very poetic.
What you have to understand when reading about Job, was that God did not punish Job, it was Satan. God took away his protection from Job, but Satan did the work.
The book of Job starts off when Satan appears to God and God boasts about Job's goodness.
Satan asks God for permission to torment Job and God lets him, but does not let him take the life of Job.
Sadly Job curses the day he was born, comparing life and death to light and darkness. He wishes that his birth had been shrouded in darkness and wishes he never born. Well all would have done the same I'm sure if we suffered as much as he did.
The book of Job explores some of the most profound questions humans ask about their lives, and it is extremely well written.
The interaction between Job and his friends illustrates the painful irony of his situation.
Our knowledge that Job’s punishment is the result of a bet between God and Satan contrasts with Job’s confusion and his friends lecturing, as they try to understand why Job is being punished.
Jobs friends said that it is because Job must have commited and evil act.
Why did God allow this to happen to Job?
God allowed it because he knew what his grace had accomplished in Job, and that it would be a great encouragement and instruction to His people for all time.
Which brings me to the point that:
We are supposed to learn from Job, just what God was showing Satan,
God allowed Satan to see that Job's faithfulness was not for material or physical comfort, but was a real faith.
We can better understand what "real faith" is, after we finnish the book of Job.
Job was refined through the trial, and in the end learned remarkable things about God, things that no one else could learn.
I would say that Job teaches us that there is alot more going on than just what we ourselves can see in our lives, and that God does in fact oversee it all for his own glory.
This post was inspired by a previous post called Of Contradictions, free will and just plain craziness
posted by Unknown at 8:18 PM
13 Comments:
Job is a great book. It's hard to understand why God would let Satan put Job through so much if he was truly faithful. I think things like what Job went through are great tests God uses to strengthen our faith. Job never cursed God through all his suffering and I'm sure in the end his faith was stronger because of his experience.
It's encouraging to know that while God did let Satan put Job through so much misery God also set limits on what Satan could do. No matter what God is always in control and even the bad things in our life are used for God's Glory.
7:55 AM
"What you have to understand when reading about Job, was that God did not punish Job, it was Satan."
didn't god create satan? is satan not an aspect of god?
"Satan asks God for permission to torment Job and God lets him, but does not let him take the life of Job."
it may have been satan directly tormenting job but it was god that set it in motion. seems that god is responsible for it.
"God allowed it because he knew what his grace had accomplished in Job, and that it would be a great encouragement and instruction to His people for all time."
so god used job as an example. job was used to settle a bet [which seems unecessary - why would god need to prove anything to satan or himself??] and inspire god's servants. what a loving and merciful god!
yet, how can we be inspired if job learned things that no one else can? i mean, if it's impossible for us to learn things about god like job did, what's the point?
10:14 AM
yes God created Satan, he is as much a creation of God as you and I are, when we hurt someone, we should blame ourselves.
God did not set in motion what Satan did, although God let it happen because he knew what he had already accomplished in Job.
Hmmm I don't see where God made a bet, when we make a bet it's a gamble and I don't see that here in the book of Job. But yes God did use Job as an example, I don't see what's wrong with that, and I do see a loving merciful God, and I see that throughout my life and the scriptures, but hey I don't expect anyone else to.
You think it's impossible to learn about God the way Job did? You are so right! But what's wrong with that? I learn from God what Job can't, we all learn from God in our own unique way, because we are all different and our stories and lifes trials are all different.
Some of us do have it as hard as Job or at least almost. Life is one hard thing for me.
I really don't see God as the bad guy at all.
I can tell by your first intro to my post that we will disagree in these things, but I love discussion and am always up to learning new things about different people.
So from me welcome to the blog, I hope you learn and have a good time here, I have learned a bit myself, and have been able to look at each persons view, I look forward to reading your thoughts and posts in the future.
11:39 PM
thanx carmel.
so why is it that god is responsible for all the good, yet not for the bad? logic dictates that if god made everything he is responsible for it all, including satan, including you and me, including everything we consider good and everything we consider bad.
god was boasting to satan (what for??). then satan said that he could turn job against god by punishing him. god disagreed but decided to let satan try so god could prove himself right. satan believed one thing, god believed another, the actions of satan were to prove who was right. god could have lost job if he renounced god. god could have been proven wrong. seems like a bet to me.
i'm not saying god is a bad guy. the concept of the christian god suggests he is just as good as he is evil.
if we all learn about god in a unique way and it's impossible to learn about god the way someone else does, what is the significance of saying that job learned things about god that no one else can? that's like saying water is wet.
9:31 AM
You write:
"so why is it that god is responsible for all the good, yet not for the bad? logic dictates that if god made everything he is responsible for it all, including satan, including you and me, including everything we consider good and everything we consider bad."
Yes I do see your point, God created us all, therefore we are his children, however...he want's us to do good, like regular parents want their children to be good, although, they are not responsible for all their childrens actions, for example if I stole a car, my mother cannot be responsible for this, it was my bad choice. Although, in a sense, God is responsible for Satan, since he is his creation, like our parents are responsible for having us be born, but having said that, God is not morally responsible for Satans wickedness, like our parents are not for us.
God cannot be made a scapegoat for Satan's destructive activities.
Satan was created as an angel, who had the most beautiful place in heaven, but he chose to be evil, had God destroyed Satan, all his creations would have served him out of fear don't you think?
Tracing evil back to God has been debated throughout the centuries. Theologically, we know that God is holy and reigns supreme, yet Satan has limited power within the parameters of God's sovereignty. Evil in way can be traced back to God in terms of culpability for it. Although God knows good and evil, he is good and is good to all, he takes no pleasure in evil.
I'm not so sure that God would have lost Job, although I can't make out like I have all the answers, but I believe that God knew what he had already accomplished in Job. I don't believe the book of Job is explaining much in depth of what God's thoughts were, but other books do, looking at Gods personality all through the Bible and in our lives when we have relationship with him, will give a better knowledge of who he really is.
I think the lesson in Job, is immensely important for us to remember in the midst of our suffering. In light of all this our sufferings make sense. They serve a high and wonderful purpose.
You are right, there is no significance in me saying that Job learned things from God that no one else can, because we all learn things from him that no one else can , I see that now.
These are my thoughts, beliefs and conclusions that I have made throughout my life. By me answering with something different from what you believe does not mean that I think i'm the most right or something like that, I have many friends who believe different than I do and I love them.
2:37 PM
carmel i'm hung up on a simple contradiction. i remember reading that god is responsible for all things [great and small]. yet you are saying god is not responsible for satan or free will. how can it be like that? if god is responsible for all things we must accept the good with the bad. i can see your point, that free will dictates behaviour and god merely made the tool, not the use of the tool. but i take this to mean god is responsible for free will and all possible actions that may come of it since he created free will and all possible actions that come from it. if he didn't make evil, we wouldn't be able to act evil. if god didn't make our choice to act evil, then we couldn't choose to be evil! if god didn't make satan's choice to torment job, satan wouldn't have been able to choose it. he must be responsible for our choices if he created them.
so i gotta ask... do you think god is omniscient? i think it's relevant because knowing everything would suggest all creation had intent. knowing every choice that would be made and then bringing it forth into existence seems like direct responsibility to me.
5:57 PM
Dustix,
I agree with you that God is responsible for Satan, and all creation.
I also agree with you that God is culpable for evil, but only in a certain fashion, I do not believe that he is morally culpable for evil.
The way I believe it to be is, that the gift that came with our creation was gift of personal volition, which is the ability to make moral choices, ie free will.
Now there would be only two logical possibilities – one might be created with “free will,” or without “free will.”
Which one of these posibilities would be the obvious expression of love? In my mind, it's the first. So the reason evil was created, seems to be because of that obvious love choice, we would hurt God, Satan being the first, because he "chose" to.
I don't see a good way to create love without the possibility of evil, or bad, if we are to try it on our own.
So to me, your conclusions are right, but to a point, I don't end it at that simple stage, where I conclude God being evil and mean in some ways, I see him as all good.
To answer you question about God being omniscient...you can probably tell already that my answer is yes. I do believe God knows all things, before they happen, I believe he knows our hearts more than we know them, and yeah he knew Satan would go astray,although Satan was created out of love, but he still loves us and wants us unconditionally. So yeah again, he is responsible.
As for Job, yeah I find God responsible for that, but not in a morally evil way. Although I don't understand it all and your questions sometimes come to my mind, because I myself don't know all the answers. But I trust God, knowing that he is all good.
2:31 AM
Oh I forgot to ask you if you think God is omniscient, and if you don't think so, why not?
11:46 PM
hmm. seems to me you are dancing around my questions and stating what you believe without explaining why. i don't mind, i mean i certainly can't hold your lack of understanding against you, but what is the point of typing so much when you are saying so little?
"So to me, your conclusions are right, but to a point, I don't end it at that simple stage, where I conclude God being evil and mean in some ways, I see him as all good."
That 'simple stage'? What complexity are you tapping into? you say that god is 'all good' yet you don't explain why. you admit that evil is an aspect of god yet you deny it as well by saying that god is all good. if god created evil, and even acts in evil ways at times, and also allows the existence of evil to persist, how can we call that good? necessity does not deny responsibility. i don't wish to attack you carmel but it seems you believe things because you want to, not because of sense or reason. perhaps you are merely lacking articulation.
i don't see how the necessity of evil abolishes god's responsibility for it. if god brought it into existence, he's responsible for it. if god is responsible for all things, evil is included. evil may be a necessity but it was still created as a necessity by god. do you see that if we say god created all things the necessity of evil is included? if god created evil to be necessary, is he not responsible for it's necessity?
i do not believe god is omniscient because i don't believe in god. i'm open to the possibility of god, or almost anything, but without anything presented to me as evidence i feel it's best not to believe one way or the other. i prefer my approach to be similar to occam's razor.
i appreciate your effort for this discussion carmel. however, i'm disapointed because i feel you are not holding up your end of the conversation. you are not addressing my questions or articulating your statements.
10:32 AM
I'm sorry that you feel that way about me.
I am trying to tell you that I know God is responsible for evil as well as good, but I don't think i'm making myself clear.
I think God is good, and you said I didn't explain that but I did when I typed:
"The way I believe it to be is, that the gift that came with our creation was gift of personal volition, which is the ability to make moral choices, ie free will.
Now there would be only two logical possibilities – one might be created with “free will,” or without “free will.”
Which one of these posibilities would be the obvious expression of love? "
I believe that evil came from God from that stage. I am not dancing around your questions, i'm just trying to explain myself,after my direct answer to you, I don't stop my conclusion at "god created evil so he is evil" that's what I mean by a simple stage. I'm not dancing around things to hide things, I feel i'm being direct in answering you but adding to it with my futher beliefs, I just wanted to make sure you knew exactly where I was coming from. You think I just told you nothing? ok.
Now im not here to make anyone upset, frustrated, dissapointed and all those things that have been happening on here, i'm not this type of person, I hate arguments and condescending talk.
I also don't hold your lack of understanding against you, as you don't hold mine against me.
Hopefully you can enjoy some better discussion with some of the other great people on here.
All the best to you, I hope you all learn from each other.
12:54 PM
Wow poor Carmel... Seems it's ok to believe what you believe as long as you make it up yourself and aren't taking it from the Bible. I've had this same problem.
It's really hard to look up a scripture for every tiny thing you want to say. I see what you've been trying to say to Dustix and it seems that because your belief is Bible based it's not good enough for him.
Dustix you accuse Carmel of dancing around and not being clear yet you say "I do not believe god is omniscient because I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD. I'm open to the possibility of god, or almost anything, but without anything presented to me as evidence I feel it's best not to believe one way or the other." You say you don't believe in God so you contradict yourself by saying you don't believe one way or another.
I don't pretend to understand why God does what he does. I do know the whole Bible theme is about God and his Holiness so to even suggest God can ever committ evil is contrary to all the Bible teaches. I don't think we will ever understand why things are as they are until God see's the time is right to enlighten us.
Seeing as how you don't believe in God and I'm going to assume you also don't believe the Bible to be the true correct word of God (correct me if I am wrong), nothing Carmel could say would pacify you. You are going to keep telling her she is wrong or try to make her contradict herself. She has given you a part of herself by sharing with you her heart and you've treated that like worthless trash. Her words are from her heart and your words seem to come from a desire for confrontation.
Not that any of this will matter if you don't believe the Bible but it's mostly to help Carmel out a bit. I believe the Bible and I believe in God so I believe the Bible when it says that God created Satan perfect. (Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created, till iniquity was found in thee.) So based on this scripture God did not create Evil. Lets see another (Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, THOU hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness) This verse is clear that SATAN was the corrupter. He is afterall the "Father" of lies.
I think Dustix you laid a clever trap for Carmel with your philosophy on God created everything so he is capable of evil... Whatever! That is against the whole theme of the Bible. You can believe whatever you like but that is not scripture. Carmel next time you feel like you're being led into a trap just remember (Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works there is none that doeth good. Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instructions Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.)
Keep your chin up Carmel. You have a strong desire to share your faith with others which is admiring. It really sucks when people try to make you unsure of what you believe by twisting and using your own words against you. Be more careful and don't respond to every question asked.
9:03 PM
"Wow poor Carmel... Seems it's ok to believe what you believe as long as you make it up yourself and aren't taking it from the Bible. I've had this same problem."
not sure what you mean kristiesue. i have nothing against anyone's beliefs. i believe we are here to discuss different views. i answer the questions i'm asked, i expect the same. if what i'm saying is overlooked or ignored, i see no point to continue the discussion. no hard feelings of course.
"It's really hard to look up a scripture for every tiny thing you want to say. I see what you've been trying to say to Dustix and it seems that because your belief is Bible based it's not good enough for him."
if a belief is bible-based then there are scriptures to back it up. if there aren't, it is not bible-based. we were talking about god being responsible for evil and evil actions. are there scriptures that state god is responsible for everything except evil? i'm not looking for someone to say something 'good enough' for me. what i adhere to is logic and reason. this of course is a natural clash with christianity, or any belief system that denies logic and reason for faith. i'm not trying to change minds, i'm trying to open my own with an understanding. if you are willing, let me know why you believe what you do. i am asking questions to expose the reasons.
"Dustix you accuse Carmel of dancing around and not being clear yet you say "I do not believe god is omniscient because I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD. I'm open to the possibility of god, or almost anything, but without anything presented to me as evidence I feel it's best not to believe one way or the other." You say you don't believe in God so you contradict yourself by saying you don't believe one way or another."
i don't believe this is a contradiction. i can elaborate. i don't believe in god, but i don't deny god's existence. i refuse to commit to a belief one way or the other. so it doesn't make sense to believe god is omniscient when i'm not even sure god exists. perhaps it would have made more sense for me to type 'i'm not sure if god is omniscient, he might be if he exists, or he might not be if he exists, but if he doesn't exist he is not.' clear? maybe you are familiar with agnosticism. i wouldn't say i'm agnostic, i mean i think there might be proof for god's existence or nonexistence, i just don't see any right now.
"I don't pretend to understand why God does what he does. I do know the whole Bible theme is about God and his Holiness so to even suggest God can ever committ evil is contrary to all the Bible teaches. I don't think we will ever understand why things are as they are until God see's the time is right to enlighten us."
i think studying the bible will reveal the contradictions it presents. what i'm trying to address is a specific contradiction. christians say that god created all things. if god created evil, and further created our choices to do evil things, why is something else responsible? i wouldn't say blaming god is useful, but i think it's logical. if he is responsible for everything being here, why is evil not included as part of everything?
"Seeing as how you don't believe in God and I'm going to assume you also don't believe the Bible to be the true correct word of God (correct me if I am wrong), nothing Carmel could say would pacify you. You are going to keep telling her she is wrong or try to make her contradict herself. She has given you a part of herself by sharing with you her heart and you've treated that like worthless trash. Her words are from her heart and your words seem to come from a desire for confrontation."
i did not once say that carmel was wrong. i also thanked her for expressing herself and the effort it took. why are you ignoring that? i'm grateful for the discussion, what i'm saying is that if my words are ignored or avoided i don't see the point.
"Not that any of this will matter if you don't believe the Bible but it's mostly to help Carmel out a bit. I believe the Bible and I believe in God so I believe the Bible when it says that God created Satan perfect. (Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created, till iniquity was found in thee.) So based on this scripture God did not create Evil. Lets see another (Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, THOU hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness) This verse is clear that SATAN was the corrupter. He is afterall the "Father" of lies."
if god did not create evil how could satan have become evil? did satan create evil? if satan is the father of lies (which i take to mean the creator), then god did not create all things. i'll present another viewpoint that suggests god is responsible for things created by beings other than himself. if god knows all things, including what will happen in the future, he would have known that satan would turn. if he didn't want evil to exist, why did he make satan? if god knew satan was going to become the father of all lies, why did god make satan with that capability unless that is what god wanted to happen? to me it would seem god is responsible for these things if he brought them into existence, especially if he knew everything that would come of it.
"I think Dustix you laid a clever trap for Carmel with your philosophy on God created everything so he is capable of evil... Whatever! That is against the whole theme of the Bible. You can believe whatever you like but that is not scripture. Carmel next time you feel like you're being led into a trap just remember (Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works there is none that doeth good. Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instructions Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.)"
hey! i may be a fool but i doeth good. i don't see that it's so black and white. people that deny god are still capable of good. i think the last two scriptures you quoted are the clever traps! it's like if someone doesn't believe what you do then they are a fool and a waste of time. harsh. i certainly would not pass that judgement on someone because they believe something other than what i do.
"Keep your chin up Carmel. You have a strong desire to share your faith with others which is admiring. It really sucks when people try to make you unsure of what you believe by twisting and using your own words against you. Be more careful and don't respond to every question asked."
i agree, keep your chin up carmel and again, i appreciate your effort (you too kristiesue). i don't wish to change anyone's beliefs or make them unsure. i'm asking questions seeking understanding.
10:02 AM
Dustix I really felt like you were attacking Carmel in your comments and she was obviously upset by them as well. I'm sorry if I over reacted, it wasn't any better for to lay into you. I hope we can all have some further discussion. I really can't answer all your questions because I'm still learning myself. However Satan is the originator of evil. He had free will and he chose to go against God. Then by using his lies he was able to deceive Adam and Eve into disobeying God.
I don't understand why God does what he does. I know you have a point God know's all and he knew this was all going to happen before it did. I can only trust that he has a reason and someday we will know. I do not think he does it for his own amusement. There is a purpose.
5:03 PM
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